August 21, 2023

Welcome to the B2B or not 2B podcast — brought to you by Transform

Welcome to the B2B or not 2B podcast — brought to you by Transform. In our first episode, the Founder & Director of Transform, Veronica Hannon, speaks with business partner and fellow Director, Dan O'Connor, to discuss all things video marketing. Listen in to hear how this growing medium is taking the marketing world by storm and helping businesses build brand awareness.

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Hello and welcome to 'B2B or not to be?' a podcast where we talk all things marketing, from PR to design to creativity to anything else that we can think of. I'm Veronica Hannon, founder and director of Transform. Everybody calls me 'Ronnie'. So that's what everybody, hopefully, is going to be calling me throughout this series. I've been in marketing for more years than I care to mention. And today, I'm delighted to be joined by my co-director and business partner, Daniel O'Connor. We're going to be talking about video marketing.

So, Dan, opening question to you: video marketing: why do you think it's really important nowadays?

There are a large number of factors in it, but naturally, as human beings, we will make a judgement on a person, a car, a place, or a restaurant within eight seconds of the first interaction, the first view, whatever it may be. So, I think when you're trying to cut through the noise in terms of how I reach my audience, how I engage, and how I get people to connect, video marketing is an incredibly important way. And I think since COVID and the way that the digital landscape has changed in recent years, it's that ability to be able to view something very quickly and move on to the next thing.

I found it really interesting coming out of a background mainly of content. How video hasn’t taken over that side of it, but is complimentary to it. And the fact that, when you're looking at communicating a message quickly and simply, video is a fantastic way of doing it, isn't it?

100%. And I think it's that ability to be able to integrate video into your communications. Absolutely. And your marketing, your strategy, and all of the wonderful things that you might be doing. So, for instance, if you are using email campaigns, and that's your main route to market in terms of attracting your audience, why not have a video in there? An email with a video incorporated into it has 83% higher engagement than an email without. So why would you not put a video into that email? And it might be that we all consume information in different ways. It might be that some people do like to read, and they want to take things in slowly. Personally, I’m a visual man; just give me the information very quickly in a video, in a reel on Instagram, in whatever it may be, and I'll consume that. But if you gave me 3000 words to read, I'd probably stop at 200.

Within that, we did this quite recently, where we looked at how many words it would take per minute of video. If you think about it, it's about five to 600 words per minute in a video, if people are talking really slowly, so you're right, for a three-minute video, you are already looking at 1500 words of written content. People would watch a three-minute video, but they wouldn't necessarily sit down to read that. That's a different way in a different form.

You use that really interesting word of integrated, because that's what we talk to clients about all of the time: don't just do stuff; make whatever you do really count and utilise it to its fullest. You know, put it in email campaigns, put it on your website, and do it through your social platforms. Get small, takes small cuts of different things. Use it in your recruitment ads, that's massive, isn't it? And it's really that case of trying to extract maximum value from whatever form and video is one of those areas that you can really extract enormous amounts of value from.

You've actually just reminded me of a situation with a client last year,  we had a client, that we did the video for a series of eight 12-minute videos. And they were not recruitment-based; it was all about their services, the legal sector that they serve. And they had a new recruit come to them, applying for a job, and they said, I want to work with you because of the videos that I've seen on YouTube. It had absolutely nothing to do with what they do or the services that they provide. It was all about the company culture, the fit, and the person going I want to work for that company because of the videos that they had consumed. So it's a really great way to be able to attract people and show off your culture, your personality, who you are as a business, and who you are as people. And, as we all know, people buy from people. So why not get that message across without having to go around the houses for years in terms of what you put on your website where people might not end up.

You know, the title of this podcast is B2B or not to be, and I think so many people have previously thought of video as being purely about  products and services in luxury, you know, consumer markets, okay, you're going to go and buy a new Audi or new BMW and you get phenomenal video, but it, it's just as applicable. Other cars are available.

Absolutely.. Just the company cars like those electric and hybrid that we have. Actually, it's really important for B2B services and particularly with the type of clients that we work with, because they're complex businesses, aren't they? Some of them are quite difficult to understand. Some of them are very, very specific and targeted, whether it's in risk or financial services, or you mentioned legal or renewables, or all of those different aspects. It can be quite difficult to be able to communicate that, but put people behind that. Brings the whole brand and the personality of the brand to life, doesn't it?

And another way you can use video marketing is in terms of what you do as a business, as your process when you onboard a client. So that can be a real blocker for people wanting to buy a service or a product. What is the implementation going to be like? What are the ongoing aftercare, customer service all of the different aspects of running a business? So highlight how you onboard, highlight how you bring people to the front, that they are important to you and your business, and that everybody is important. And it's, again, another one-minute, quick way of being able to show off who you are, how you work, the teams that people will be working with, the places that you are located, maybe,  are you international? Yes. We've got people based all around the world. I didn't know that. So you are bilingual? Yes. We work in Spanish. Great. We've got three people that speak Spanish in a multitude of ways that you can use video for that.

I'm always a words person, aren't I? So I always like my little lists and my little ways of being able to think about things. And you've mentioned quite a few different types of videos there.  In my head, I tend to think of, that there's three potential different types of videos that you might want to do. There are the people and personalities behind the brand. And for a lot of our clients, that's actually removing it from just the owner-founders; that's being able to show breadth and depth of expertise. So get your subject matter experts on board. If you're doing it for recruitment, get different voices to come through. We did a fantastic series of videos with a manufacturing company where we looked at not just the general manager and his views, beliefs, and opinions, but then we looked at all of the central head office staff, and then we went down onto the factory floor and we got interns, apprentices, and people who'd been there for 30 years.

And all of that aspect of people being able to say, Oh, they're just like me, I can see myself working there. Yeah. I can see that I like them. I'd fit into the culture. It really brings it alive, doesn't it? And the second type of one, I mean, we mentioned this, and this is, I think, the crossover really with B2C is that people will think of products or services. So, you know, what do you do? What do you offer? But it's a way of communicating that in a compelling fashion rather than just a demo that might be important for,  a technology client for example, you might need that, but put some personality in it, bring that through. And then, I think, my third one, because I told you I like lists, so these are my three P's.

So I got people, products, and then the third one would, to me, would be a sort of passion for those areas of interest. And obviously, at Transform, we also have an ESG consultancy, and that is such a cool part, isn't it? That's where you can really get the passion involved. And obviously, it's incredibly important to the people that you work with. It's also really important for people who buy from you, and increasingly, with a real focus and environmental credentials or sustainability. Yeah. So that's bringing passion to life. We've done things, where people have charity runs or different things like that, and they want to be able to get that across, which I think contributes, doesn't it?

Yeah. And to pick up on another point that you've just made there, it's about bringing people out from behind the scenes, profiling other people within the business. So we traditionally think, we're going to put the business on video, and, it's going to go out to the wide world. We're going viral, so let's put the directors up front. That's not the people who are doing the day-to-day work. It's about the people who are actually running the business effectively because they're the ones on the ground. They're the ones in front of people; they're the ones that are out and about on the road. So bring those people to the forefront. It's not just about the C-suite; it's not just about the HR director, depending upon what the video may be about bring the real people out from behind the scenes.

And we've had many circumstances whereby people go; I'm not going on video. And then, all of a sudden, we create a video for somebody. And then the rest of the team's here, and they go. I want one of those. Can I go on video now? And because they can see that, with some clever work, lighting, editing, and all the wonderful things that you do and storyboarding, you can actually make something absolutely stunning. When you think to yourself that you've not done a great job in terms of the recording Wonderful Nick Crosby can sit down and work his magic. It comes out absolutely beautiful.

That's really about the care and attention when you bring it together. And we'll get onto sort of how, you can do it, but in terms of different types of videos. We've done  the people, the products, and the passion side of it, but then there's also different forms that they can take. So, we've looked at long-form video. Which might be a little bit more of a sofa chat. We've had some fantastic people and clients who've come in and sat down and done a recorded interview. And because it's, it's usually somebody who's really important to that sector. You can extend it a little bit longer, can't you? You can go for seven to eight minutes or more in terms of that type of conversation.

Yeah. And then that long form can be cut up. So you can take out segment sections and break it down into the parts that are, you know, I'm just thinking of one in particular when we had the senior editor of Legal 500 for LatAm, 20 minute Couch Talk video. And then we extract one or two minute extracts that can be used in social media posts, LinkedIn, email marketing campaigns—all of those wonderful things. So it goes back to our creating it once and using it multiple times, I guess.

In terms of being able to repurpose and keep that content evergreen and being able to push it out there again and again and again, so it's costing you a sum of money once; how many times can you use that? Where can you use that? How can we use that? Who would interact with that differently?  I might sit down and consume 20 minutes of video a night. Other people will sit down and consume hours of video per night. So who are you trying to reach, and where are you trying to reach them?

I think that that aspect that you talked about— create it once, use it multiple times as well. Once you've got something on film, it can be repurposed.  So we've done quite a lot, haven't we? You might take recordings from different people in different shoots, and then you can cut them together. So we've done show reels. Videos for exhibitions that come off the back of it, which are just highlights that are picked up through all of the different processes, and it's all there, it's all captured. All it takes is knowledge and clever editing. You can use it for multiple purposes all of the time. So it's a worthwhile investment.

What are your thoughts on informal versus formal video?

I will always push a client to be as informal as possible in terms of how they want to portray themselves. Because you said it right at the start, you said people buy people. So it doesn't need to be that suited, booted, ties really formally set up. Or with very formal language, it is much more engaging to watch people naturally having an interaction. And that includes, you know, not using your BBC Radio voice when you're talking about things; that was Dan earlier saying you had to have your radio voice accent come through. We like it, but no, you don't.  Really try to cut through to what people want to hear and engage with real people. So it's bringing that to the fore, but that doesn't mean that the process of setting up a video should be informal. If people just rock up and go, okay, what am I talking about? And there hasn't been the thought or the preparation that's gone into it. You won't get the results I don't think you want at the end of it. So, going back to Nick, who's sitting behind the camera today, talking about things, he would always say,  make certain you've got your storyboard, you've got your key points that you want to get across, and then you've got a beginning, middle, and end. Because a video is a story, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I'm going to relate this to something that I saw on LinkedIn earlier, and this is going back to what you're saying about setting it up properly. Again, I won't mention a company name because they're not a client, but it would be unprofessional and irresponsible to do that. But I saw a video from a company that I met at the CIPD conference in Manchester back in 2019 before COVID. And they had set somebody up on a sofa with a big window behind them, and they'd drawn some net curtains behind this lady that was, on video, on camera. But you could see that it had been recorded by somebody with a basic camera or an iPhone or something. The lighting was terrible. Her face was blown out because of the light coming through.

I thought if you had just done that properly, put in a bit more time and thought, or hired somebody professional to come in and do that, that video would have a much bigger impact. Whereas I started to watch it and disengaged because I thought it looked terrible. That may be a bias because obviously we produce very high-quality video in 6K recordings, on a daily basis. But what do other people think when they're seeing that video - this is a big organisation.? This is a multimillion-pound organisation, so why not invest the time and the money to do something like that properly? And at the end of the video, it said copyright 2019. So they recorded that four years ago, and they're still using it now. So that's evergreen content for them. But they've done it badly four years ago, and they're still trying to use it now.

The setup's really important, isn't it? And making certain that people are as prepared as possible without being scripted. So I do have some notes in front of me, which I do refer to, but they are very short bullet points, aren't they? Because as soon as we try to script anything, it goes wrong. And it sounds terrible.

When you stumble over your words. I mean, the number of times we've had clients say, well, I want to know what we're saying. You must write a script for me, or I'm going to write a script. And then you put them in front of a camera, and you try to recite that script verbatim, word for word. It doesn't work, and it will take you an hour to do a one-minute video. Whereas if you were just being natural and talking about what you know and specialising in what you do every day, you could run that off in three minutes. And we could make a one-minute video from it.

But there is something that happens, isn't there, when a camera gets put in front of people? It makes even you and me really nervous.

Yeah. So, how do we help settle people when they come in and, you've got a studio set up, you've got lights above you, you've got microphones, and you've got a camera in front of you? How do you get people to settle into that?

I think it's having art directed many a video with the wonderful help of Nick being able to very quickly media train somebody on how to act, talk, be on camera, relax, and calm down. As you say: you put a camera in front of somebody, and it can all go to pot. And I'm exactly the same. So I'll sit there all day and tell people how to do it. And you need to relax, and you need to do this, and you need to do that. And this is about how you're going to talk, but you put a camera in front of me, and at times I can fall to pieces. So I think it's about being relaxed in that situation. You need to mentally prepare yourself for what you're going to do and what you're going to be talking about. And we had an instance last year with a client where, it was winter and the weather conditions were absolutely shocking.

The floods around the offices in the recording studio here at Transform Towers were pretty, ridiculous, and dangerous, to be blunt. And our client got stuck in the floods, about half a mile away from the recording studio. I had to do a huge diversion and go around the block. And by the time he got here, he was completely fired up and very flustered, coupled with a very strong coffee.

I then put said gentleman in front of the camera, and he couldn't relax; he couldn't get into the role. I think we were shooting for about two hours. He went away, sent me a text message that night, and said, don't use any of that. I'm going to come back and do it when I'm properly relaxed. So I think that upfront preparation, both mentally for yourself and from the direction of your recording team, whoever's doing your video for you, is incredibly important, and you, are right when you said coffee—careful use of caffeine.

We had another instance where we were filming in London and, they'd just won a big contract and they'd had, well, it's not just coffee, but they'd had a glass of champagne and then topped that off with Red Bull. And by the time he sat down in front of the camera, everything was jittering because he was so fired up with, well, the fact that they just won a big contract. But yes, you have to then take a big, deep breath, settle, compose, get yourself ready. But you can keep on shooting, can't you? You can keep on filming.

So Dan, when we go back and look at the video, it really is a key fundamental part of your integrated marketing strategy.
It's one of the aspects that we look at when we sit down and do a deep dive with clients. Isn't it? Really trying to understand not just their marketing strategy and objectives, but their real business strategy and objectives?  So what are they trying to achieve as a business? Where do they see growth? What are the challenges that they might need to overcome? What are the risks that might be presented to them as a business? And that includes looking quite broad. What competitors are doing? What's happening in the market and what trends are coming through? But when we start pulling together an integrated marketing plan, we are looking at those hero bits of content that people might want. All those themes, those hero themes that they might want to communicate, and then trying to understand the best medium to get that message across or, the different types of media.

For example, if we were looking at doing a thought leadership campaign on risk, it might include a thought leadership white paper, but it probably would include video,  as key within that. And then it would include how we take that into account, into social media, and all those different aspects. We use the PESO model. I love my models as much as I love my lists. So the PESO model is a really interesting one that looks across paid, shared, and owned channels that you have, ensuring that you're not overly reliant on just one channel. Because if we all knew what worked in marketing , we'd be multi, multi-billionaires, at this point. But there's no magic bullet, is there?

So it's looking at, actually, how can we really maximise each of those different channels? We mentioned exhibitions, and if you go to an exhibition and have a video show reel as part of that, it's part of your paid activity. We do quite a lot of paid social media campaigns. Don't we? And pay per click, which video can also be used for. Then it's shared. So going into very much  how can you influence people?

People always say they want to get a video to go viral. What's your response to that, Dan?

I think it depends on what you're trying to do and what you're trying to achieve. What is the objective, and what does success look like? Do you want to be an influencer? Do you need your video to go viral to be able to get coverage? Or are you targeting a very niche marketing sector where there are only 10,000 types of directors or people within that job role that you need to attract?

So, and I think it's a little bit different in the B2B environment, isn't it? What exactly is viral in B2B?

So I think it's when you're looking at any type of video or what you're trying to do, what are we trying to achieve? Is it purely a brand awareness exercise? Are we trying to get 100 leads through the door in the next quarter to be able to convert 20% of those to sales? What do you want to do? What does success look like? And then we can start to map out how you would achieve that.

And that's very much what we're focusing on, not just those top-level vanity statistics, isn't it? This post reached X number of people, or we've had,  40,000 likes on YouTube for it. But actually, what is that really translating into?

If none of those are your business audience, what's the point in doing it? You could take a very boring subject or an engineering company and put lots of cats, cute dogs, and animals all across there and get a million views. But are any of those people viewing that video your audience? Probably not. They just like cats and dogs and cute animals, which is fine and lovely; you've got some brand awareness from it, but have you sold anything? Have you actually converted anything that would be very important for our cat furniture company? For which we have recorded video in the studio as well.

That's true, you're right. It's focusing right back on that strategy. What do you want it to achieve? Because my problem with different things is that in marketing, you just end up doing a whole ton of stuff We've got to do this, so we've got to do that, or somebody hasn't posted on social media. Let's just do something. Do anything. And, and that's where it all tends to fall down because people just become busy fools, don't they?

Exactly that. Doing things for the sake of doing things isn't going to work. Employing somebody to do a marketing executive job and expecting them to run an entire marketing team and be a marketing director is not going to happen. and that's where businesses tend to fall down. They start getting people to do stuff for the sake of doing stuff. It needs that strategy. It needs the integration, it needs the skill sets, the designers, the graphics, and all of the wonderful things that we and other companies are able to offer to be able to put that together and actually get it out there in a forceful way that is doing some good, for you in thebusiness. That's the temptation, to have a look at something and go, Oh, everybody's doing video. We must do video. And actually, it's not about doing something. It's about the objectives, what it's going to achieve, what the message is, what the right medium is to get that across, and then making certain that it's executed brilliantly.

We've been working with clients and supporting them on video marketing for a number of years now. In terms of that, we've learned lessons. What would you say are the main things that, from a client perspective, if you're a marketing director or if you're an owner or founder of a business and you're listening to or watching this, what would be the key things that you would say are the dos and don'ts?

I think there are a multitude, but I think, as somebody very famous once said, who we can't remember failing to plan, is planning to fail. The key here, I think is planning internally with your own people and the people that are about to be on camera or want to be on camera. but also the video marketing company that you are working with to be able to storyboard that out correctly. Get an itinerary. And so you've got John on at 10 o'clock, until 11 o'clock. You've got Mary coming in at 11:30 and giving them that time to be able to relax into what they're about to take on.

There is also, in terms of that planning,   studio setups as well. You know, this is a nice, controlled environment. We've got everything that we need here, but there have been times when we've gone to another location. Yeah, at different places and, you have a studio that's set up, and then somebody goes walking past with clanging carts of crockery or cutlery, that totally disrupts and interrupts externally.

If you're out shooting, you and Nick did a shoot at what degree temperature?

38 degrees up in Kettering. It was an incredibly interesting shoot; it was an organisation, quite a large business that does the interiors for Aston Martin and Bentley. It was a building that had just had 1700 solar panels installed on the roof, and the temperature was 38 degrees. So our client turned up, wearing a gorgeous suit, looking absolutely dapper, dressed to the nines. And the poor gentleman had to stand out in 38-degree heat recording for over an hour.

He did take his jacket off, didn't he? Ended up, taking his jacket off. We ended up doing it in shirt sleeves, because we were melting, but we had a lot of moving parts. And when I say moving parts, we had trucks and things. So there was a waste disposal management company opposite where we were filming to get the breadth and the depth, and then the whole building, in the background, every couple of minutes we would have lorries arriving to drop off waste or collect some recycling, whatever they were doing opposite. So it was about being able to plan when that truck was going to stop, turn the engine off, the brakes were going, the air brakes were going too. We've got three minutes. Shoot. Equally, we had another shoot in Bampton, and this was a lesson to be learned by myself.

I was the drone pilot for the day. and we were, again, doing a renewable energy video for a solar PV company. And, we got on site, did all of the B roll with the cameras, did all the talking head interviews, and interviewed some of the site workers and all of the other great things that we were doing up there. And when it came to the drone, I said, Right, I'm going to put the drone in the air, and we'll get all of the aerial shots now. Lo and behold, I hadn't done my research before we left, and we were two miles away from an air base. So we had restrictions on flying. Luckily, we are registered licenced pilots. We've got all of the necessary things in place, and at the time we were on that shoot, we were flying a 249-gramme drone, so the restrictions aren't as bad. But I had to apply through the app to get permission to fly in that area. Luckily it was granted, within about 10 minutes of us trying to put the drone up. But I've had instances where filming privately with a drone or playing with a drone where I live, for instance, is very near another air base, coincidentally, and they won't let me; I cannot get approval to fly in that area because it's so sensitive. So I think it's about planning, particularly if you're going to do a shoot in London and you're using drone footage. You really need to plan and apply beforehand. And sometimes that can be weeks in advance as to why you are flying, what you are flying, where you are flying, and what heights you are flying at, because you are in huge, sensitive areas with huge airports all around you. So, that's definitely a lesson that we've learned in the past and one that we won't make a mistake on again.

And I think within that planning and preparation, it's also giving it enough time because people might think, Oh, I'm shooting a one-minute video. Okay, I'll do it in half an hour between meetings, and it's not enough. It's not enough time. So, it's an expensive allocation of resources if you're pulling people out of the business to be able to do it, but the importance of it is really there. So that means properly briefing everybody who's going to be turning up. At least a week beforehand, giving them some pointers, getting them thinking about things, not scripting it, but getting those talking points that they really want to be able to get across in the day. And then, from, you know, our perspective as a video marketing company, being able to turn up and have enough time for proper setup.

And testing, whether that's mics or that's lights or being able to correctly choose the angle because, sometimes I've walked into two shoots that Nick has set up, and I look at the setup and I go, gosh, it's going to look terrible on camera.And Nick goes, No, look at it through this. And actually, when you really focus on that whole architectural structuring of a shot is very different from when you just walk into a room, isn't it?

Definitely. I'd like to pick up on another point you made there about giving enough time to record. We've recorded with the same companies multiple times for years and years and years now, and we've got clients that are one-take wonders, and they can walk in and they can absolutely smash a shot out in five, 10 minutes. Nick can create a two-minute video from it. Absolutely brilliant. And then the same person can come back six months later, and it takes them an hour to get a two-minute message out there. So

I think it depends on your state of mind at the time, whether you've got things going on with the kids at school or whether you are stressed out with something that's happening at work. So it is about giving it the right time and preparation to be able to master it on the day. But not thinking that you can do it in 10 minutes because it's not a 10-minute job. It's something that needs to be done properly, and it doesn't hurt to shoot the say things three times. And then for us or another video marketing company, to be able to pick out the best bits, the best take, and you can knit it together. You might have done the first paragraph brilliantly in take one, but then in take three, it was terrible. So you can always play around with it and remove what you need and insert what you need in the right places.

So we've spoken about lesson one; prepare a second lesson or another lesson?

I think there is a case where you do not try to cram too many things into one video. So give your video a purpose and an objective, and stick to that. If you try to mix the messages and you try to get too much into a one-minute video, you'll lose the audience. So if we go back into the E, the S, and the G, if we talk about the social side of things, the governance side of things, it's a recruitment drive. We want to bring the right people in. We want to show the culture. Make a video about your people and your culture. Don't try to say, but we also have the best X, Y, and Z in the world. and start talking about your products and services, because that's not what you're trying to achieve. It's all about what you're trying to do with that video at the time. If it's a recruitment video, I want 10 people, from people that have been there for three months to 10 years, to come on and give a ten-second interview. This is why I love this place. This is what we do. This is the culture. This is why I'm included. This is why I have a voice.

You know, and, actually, that in itself is a really important lesson for people to learn. If you are giving people a voice and a camera, let them have that voice. It's not about them then parroting back the five different values that are  on the wall outside or trying to just shoehorn our mission statement? Or can we get in somewhere where our company tagline needs to be? Because it doesn't sound natural. So, that’s if you’re talking about values of honesty and integrity. I integrity is letting people be who they are. Honesty is letting them speak how they speak naturally. Rather than trying to hit the marketing taglines 101 and let's get the brand book and bring it to life. It's not about that. Don't try to cram everything into one video. And then don't try and shoehorn in all of the carefully honed and refined marketing messages; those have their place. Absolutely. They have their place. But video is, you're not trying to get people to parrot them, are you?

No, exactly. And the diversity piece, I know it's a big topic and it has been for years, but bring everybody out from the background. You don't need male C-suite people on video talking about what your company values are. Or your mission statement is, bring the people out that are actually doing the job on the ground. Bring out the people who have a passion for your company. because that's what shines through, is that real-life experience more than anything else. And going back to my three Ps at the beginning we had a lovely occasion where we were doing some videos for a company, and one of their team members came down. And in his part-time life, what he enjoyed doing was singing. And he sang a song during the video. We just caught it and captured it. And it was absolutely beautiful because that was him, that was his personality, that really came through. So sometimes it's also capturing those little pieces or pushing that question.

And actually, let's just talk about some of the lessons that we've learned. So, you know, we will say to clients, don't script. But part of our role in videos is having those questions prepared, which is what we do quite a lot, isn't it? We sit behind the camera and ask them questions to be able to really pull them out. And a key lesson for us in that is sometimes just let the silence speak. Because you get that golden nugget that comes out when people are relaxed and they're just thinking, and then they say something and it's like, That's it. That's when you know you've got it.

So thank you, Dan, for joining me for our informal chat about video marketing. We'll have more videos like this coming soon, with more people from Transform and  externally coming in to have a chat with us about all things marketing.  It was a great way to kick it off. Thanks for listening. This has been 'B2B or not to be?' a podcast about all things marketing from Transform.

And if you have any questions regarding some ideas for a video, please get in touch with us. Be happy to help discuss and advise wherever we can. Thank you.